off topic - music video question

[Richard]

On second thoughts, I don't think playing with power tools in a swimming pool is such a good idea

[Lizzie_Claymore]

Glad we've sorted that out.

Now to get back to the subject of buses....

Arf! Careful, we'll all end up talking about the merits of pneumocyclic gearboxes versus preselectors!

....but while we're on the subject, it is true that it is so easy for people to dismiss modern music as 'talentless' and 'easy'. I don't think that's true as it needs some qualification. The talent of a bygone era was invariably during the actual performance - the ability to play instruments live. Although much live performance remains, the talent these days is often transferred back prior to the actual delivery. Sampling, mixing and mastering all require a lot of skill and practice if they are to be accurate and effective.

Live performance still requires skill, though the 'instrument' is now more often than not the decks. Even simple 2-deck beat-matching continuous mixes can be hideously awful to listen to if the DJ crashes the mix - it needs much practice. Full harmonic mixing and scratch mixing take it up to higher levels of skill and practice.

If you want an example of skill par excellence, then have a look at this astonishing video of the C2C crew doing a 4-man/5 deck live mix at the 2005 World DJ Mixing Competition. Although much of the video has been 'remade' to cut in and out between the version that was recorded live (so as to enable the additional views), it is interesting to note that not only have they had to practice virtually sample-accurate live vinyl mixing x4 but they'll have had to have the 4 additional discs cut especially and each one differently, to allow for the different tracks to be dropped in and out. That takes a lot of meticulous planning and execution.

Prepare to be amazed!

Here.

(Just don't try doing this while sploshing!)

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Claymore_wam's "Useful WAM Info" Pages

[messymercedes]

C2C????????? Ooeeerrrrrr I thought they operated the TRAINS on the Fenchurch to Shoeburyness Line, Right back to Buses boys hehehe

Cede xx

[Phantom]

Claymore - that C2C clip is awesome! Those guys are cool as fuck for putting all of that together!!

Phantom

[welshcakes]

Well, I'm no music snob but I'm sick of all these DJ-samples-catchy-classic-song-chorus hits for the simple reason that they are all exactly the same. They all start of with the chorus of said classic hit sounding tinny and quiet and slightly distorted like you're hearing it from a distance, then it gradually gets louder and louder until it reaches a crescendo, there's a split second of silence and then...boom! The beat kicks in and continues on its own for about 16 bars and then the chorus comes back in and that's about it. They all seem to follow that exact pattern.

[rentbook2u]

Okay, I conceed that there might be a little talent involved in sampling but when it comes down to it, it's pinching bits of other peoples work. It isn't quite so bad when they at least put something of themselves on it, Rogue Traders for example with the samples from Costello's "Pump It Up" and The Knack's "My Sharona" forming the backbone of their last two singles but at least you can spot their own work on there (even if it's just changing the lyric). But that no-talent-whatsoever who just took Winwood's "Valerie" and looped it over and over. Just cos it sells doesn't make it good. I mean somebody bought "Grandad" and "Shutupa Your Face" didn't they?

It wouldn't happen with classic paintings. Imagine somebody sampling the Mona Lisa and mixing with a Picasso. It would be seen as the tat that it is.

Who started all this sampling? Stars On 45 and Jive Bunny.....I rest my case.

[DecadentDoll]

Ahhhhhh Joe Dolce Shaddapya Face!

A true classic, now lets hear that remixed, with a video of lots of half naked girls playing accordions.

Instant classic folks. I promise ya.

Poor Joe needs some royalties these days probably...

DD x

[andy250]

Sampling goes back to the really early days of house in the home of it.

Chicago, dj the glove I think was the first to do anything also included scratching and mixing beats. Now I did this on and off for 6 years. I have also helped make a white label, as sploshman says thats pretty hard, you have to re-work everything. As for mixing I had to practice almost everyday in order to get the set right. So it all sounded flawless. As for scratching I have killed so many copies of douggie fresh and snaps the power I hate to think about.

Worse tune ever remixed: Taylor Dane, Tell it to my heart!!!!! yikes..

regards

Andy
(blowing off the dust from some old tunes.)

[Sploshman]

But that no-talent-whatsoever who just took Winwood's "Valerie" and looped it over and over. Just cos it sells doesn't make it good. I mean somebody bought "Grandad" and "Shutupa Your Face" didn't they?

It wouldn't happen with classic paintings. Imagine somebody sampling the Mona Lisa and mixing with a Picasso. It would be seen as the tat that it is.

Who started all this sampling? Stars On 45 and Jive Bunny.....I rest my case.

Gotta dissagree again - for the Call On Me track Steve Winwood revocalled the track and ACTUALLY LIKED what was done with the refix of it.

If you listen to it then it is not just the orignal sample being looped over mate - trust me.

Rap music back in the late 70's was the first music to do sampling - Jive Bunny were just a lil twikle then lol.

I'm sure all of you have danced to Sugarhill Gang's Rapper's Delight one time of another........

All that was is a classic Chic sample of Good Times over someone rapping on it and over 20 yrs later both the orignal sample track and the Rappers Delight version are still classics!!.

Sampling is an artform - either if it is finding a really good obscure loop or cutting it up into something that is unrecognisable from the orignal sample.

Talent is definatley required for it!!.

[Sploshman]

Well, I'm no music snob but I'm sick of all these DJ-samples-catchy-classic-song-chorus hits for the simple reason that they are all exactly the same. They all start of with the chorus of said classic hit sounding tinny and quiet and slightly distorted like you're hearing it from a distance, then it gradually gets louder and louder until it reaches a crescendo, there's a split second of silence and then...boom! The beat kicks in and continues on its own for about 16 bars and then the chorus comes back in and that's about it. They all seem to follow that exact pattern.

Listen deeper mate and you see that it is not just about that - there are other elements that make these tracks minus the looped sample and beats.

As i said before it is not as easy as what you have just written and most ppl fall into the trap of thinking this.

[rentbook2u]

I'm sure all of you have danced to Sugarhill Gang's Rapper's Delight one time of another........

I can assure you that I have never, ever, danced to Rapper's Delight!

I'm not surprised Winwood was happy with the "Call On Me" song, surely he received 100% royalties for it AND it's intersting that you say it was he who re-recorded the vocals and not the man whose name was on the record.

Another music genre that gets my back up is these girl/boy bands doing covers that sound exactly the same as the original. I was flicking through the music channels on digital telly the other evening and I don't know who the group were but it was two pretty girls and two pretty boys singing Abba's Super Trooper.....and it sounded just like the original...what's the point? Just hunt out the original.

Bands like Westlife and Boyzone are the worst culprits.

Please please don't get me started on X Factor....hate it, hate it, HATE IT!!!

[DecadentDoll]

I'm torn on this topic, definetely.

Sampling CAN BE an artform... but sometimes it is just pure bollocks. Sometimes the only thing the DJ has in mind is making something out of it.

I've enjoyed various tracks with samples in the past.... was it fatboy slim who sampled Jim Morrison..yes, bird of prey.

Sugarhill Gang...love it.

Apache is one of the most sampled tracks in rap ever i do believe.

But what we're talking about here is the pure saturation of our tv screens/ears with unoriginal shit.

Yes, DJ'ing isn't simple. But thats not the issue here. The issue is that it's hard to get nostalgic about a favourite older song when some fucker has gone and rehashed it, chopped it up and pretty much ruined it.

Whether or not the original artist is happy with it isn't an issue, although i see where you're coming from Sploshman.

The issue is really "can anyone write their own fucking songs anymore?"

Ronan Keating recently covered Iris by the Goo Goo Dolls, the song isnt even 20 years old...if even 10.... and the only difference is his weird constipated sounding vocals.... the whole thing is identical apart from that!

Im passionate about my music too....if you can't tell.

X Factor and such...those are just cruel cruel shows exploiting the dreams of others. Not good. But thats another argument altogether!

DD x x x

[Phantom]

The issue is really "can anyone write their own fucking songs anymore?"


....I hear where you're coming from on this one DD.

I often think the same thing about Hollywood - doesn't anyone have any original ideas for films any more? Seems that all we get these days are sequels, franchises, remakes, reimaginings etc etc etc. (I love music, but I'm even more passionate about cinema).

I think music and cinema are alike - for every gem you find, there'll be 99 movies/songs that are unimaginative shite!

Sampling is fine provided it's done in an imaginative way and produces something fresh/new/entertaining...

Dope Smugglaz - The Word
Deetah - Relax
Boogie Pimps - Somebody to Love
Neptunes - Sympathy for the Devil
Rockem Sockem Robots - Jump
Jackie O - Save Tonight

... these all borrow from well known tracks but come up with something brilliant and exciting (IMO).

Boy/girl bands covering classics is another story all together. I remember there was a spate a few years back, where all those little turds - 911, Westlife, Boyzone, A1 etc where covering their way through the BeeGees entire back catalogue!

Westlife are certainly the worst culprits. That collection of cheesy twats ought to be strung up for their crimes against music.

Boy/Girl Bands don't love music. They love money. They should be ashamed and disgusted of themselves. The only one from that lot I forgive is Robbie Williams.

Cheers

Phantom

ps - no word from Easy As or Wamadeus???? Those two LOVE music and I was sure they'd have some views to offer.

[easy_as_]

I like my music too and I remember having a couple of good conversations with Sploshman about this type of subject, if not these actual examples !

For the record I like a bit of Rap / Hip-Hop . . . . . I even have De La Soul and Cypress Hill in my collection. Grandmaster Flash, Melle Mel and the Furious Five . . . . another great exponent . . . .
but also you had bands like Big Audio Dynamite sampling not only music but film dialogue from obscure films too ( Performance, starring Mick Jagger ! ) . . . . Stars on 45 and Jive Bunny were merely mixing tracks the latter being especially extremely annoying in the extreme ( sic ).

I think what might give some kind of credibility to sampling and looping, is for artists to create their own samples and loops . . . .
. . . for example Revoloution Number 9 on the White Album by the Beatles has any amount of samples and loop tracks on it.
Mostly created in the studio by George Martin and Paul McCartney, I think. It is, it has to be said, quite unlistenable if in the wrong mood.
Also, another famous example at the hands of George Martin, the second half of Strawberry Fields is replayed backwards with the singing on top . . . . . in a similar vein the Stone Roses did this with ' Don't Stop ' ( ' Waterfall ' in reverse ) on their lauded eponnymous debut album.

I am sure artists like Captain Beefheart ( with the exception of ' Safe As Milk ' ) and Frank Zappa have made experimental forays into this technology, as it was very new at the time.

The kit may have changed but the talent still has to be there, and while they didn't sample prominent artists of the recent yesteryear, there were artists in the 60's doing similar cover versions of some songs that to me are at best the same as the original.
In fact, there were numerous rip-offs of obscure Rock and Blues men, such as Arthur Cruddup who wrote ' That's Alright, Mama ' the Elvis Presely hit and ' Bear Cat ' by Rufus Thomas which for all the world sounds like it inspired another Presely hit . . . ' Hound Dog ' . . . . . . and if you go into how much Reggae and Ska has borrowed from each others tracks. . . . .
. . . . . erm, how long do you have to spare ?

Nobody ever complains that the Rolling Stones were just a blues covers band and never really broke the mould too much for their own songs . . . or that Led Zeppelin were a Heavy Blues band, is that a new Genre ? Admittedly they rocked out too, but they indulged in the Blues throughout their albums.

Punk is just Rock 'n' Roll updated wih a new agression . . . . for the Sex Pistols, The Damned and The Clash read Jerry Lee Lewis and Bill Hailey even Elvis.

Nothing is new or original, for example the latest cycle is to dig up the Eighties, Razorlight for example on their stonking new tune ' In The Morning ' borrows heavily from Blondie ( Atomic bassline ) Talking Heads ( Road To Nowhere drums ) . . . . and dabbles in Doobie Brothers territory for a little of Long Train Running . . . . admittedly that is a 90's hit ( originally recorded in 1973 ).

I might also add that The Killers on ' Hot Fuss ' particularly the first track Jenny Was A Friend Of Mine,
sounds like a hybrid of Duran Duran bassline and Robert Smith ( The Cure ) vocals.
A good thing.

Now for a bad thing.

Jet were, for me, the biggest culprit of recent times, with the admittedly catchy ' Are You Gonna Be My Girl ' with the Lust For Life drum beat. The whole album ' Get Born ' was a load of oh so clever musical references it lost any charm it might have had, or it could be seen as a rip off of certain tracks, two more examples of this are ' Look What You've Done ' ( Sexy Sadie - The Beatles ) and the tile of the last track ' Sgt Major ' references clearly a prominent lyric from a Paul McCartney and Wings song called . . . .
. . . . yes, you guessed it JET ! Hey, Look what THEY'VE done !

See what I did there ?


Actually, to come clean on the Lust for life drum beat, you may have not realised but it appears on the Jam's ' A Town called Malice ' ( in the opening bassline )
and now I come to think about it I think even Cosy Powell might have used it on ' Dance With The Devil ' . . . .
. . and who can dare forget ' You Can't Furry Love ' by Phil Collins . . . . . and break !

The point is, after all that, is that there is enough to criticise on a plageristic basis in guitar and instrument based pop, let alone delve into the world of electronic music, dance music and sampling . . . . . . . christ there has been crap in that genre when a decent sample might have helped even.
Although God only knows ( the blasphemy not the the Beach Boys track ) what could have possibly saved Crystal Waters classic ' Gypsy Woman '
that has appalled me every single day since I first heard it. Oh the pain. To quote Joy Division . . . . When will it end ? When Will It End ?

Anyway, I now think it's time to go and sit in a dark room, and think of how I can mash Omibus ( The Move ) and Magic Bus ( the Who ) together,
including any lyric that mentions busses or bus stops, Madness's ' Cardiac Arrest ' has one such line . . .
. . . if you do not hear from me again soon, assume that I am busy on a masterpiece !!!!!!!


exhaustedly,

easy_as_

[dirtydids]

I must respond to these comments and say how impressed i am by such an arguementative and at the same time enthralling and knowledgeable thread, it is a pleasure to read the constructive items put forth and i am amazed at the knowledge various people have of music.

I will be absolutely honest nothing has meant anything to me at all as i just listen to music, have my likes and dislikes depending on my mood, albiet i obviously have my all time favourites and am in no way as knowledgeable as others on this thread, my range of music some would probably think wierd as it does cover an enormous spectrum depending how i feel, believe it or not when driving long distances i love listening to Rave and i am 59 lol.

If anyone however wants to get into a thread involving Railways and Locomotives i would be only too pleased to fill up several pages of my main passion namelythe building, naming, numbering and re-numbering, sheds and liveries etc of what i personally consider one of the greatest locomotives ever built The Gresley A4 Pacific.

However at the end of the day threads like this really do show just how diverse,informative and knowledgeable people who are also into WAM really are and not as others in the world might think a bunch of crazy weirdo's.

dirtydids