The Splosh UK Forum

I've posted this subject on other forums, so maybe some of you have seen this before.
I imagine that there are a lot of people, particularly women, who would say that this fetish we indulge in is degrading. Specifically, the idea of a woman covering herself with a liquid just to excite men is exploitive and demeening. How do you all feel about this?
I say that so long as she's over 18, she enjoys doing it, and she's comfortable with guys being attracted to her, then it's not at all exploitive or degrading.
(By the way, Hayley, has SPLOSH! ever received critisizm from femmenists?)

Yes, we have had some criticism but only from diehard extreme feminists invariably wound up by the producers of chat shows (Bill did one once in Bristol where they brought 3 mad women along to hate him - and they did - fortunately the audience agreed with him).

Surely nothing is degrading if the people are doing it willingly and for fun, and are either enjoying it or pretending to NOT enjoy it. In my view it only looks exploitative when you see pictures of women who clearly don't want to be there going through the motions for the money or to cheer up their hubbies. At SPLOSH! we do not run pics like that for that reason. Nor would we run any pictures of people in geuine distress. That is exploitative.

In short, it may appear demeaning but the pics only work if the person (male or female) clearly likes being demeaned! If it looked genuinely demeaning, then it wouldn't work for us.

Does that make sense?

Hayley

i totaly agree with hayley as long as both people enjoy it then it isnt degrading at all

Hayley, Stu et al,

For the sake of debate, let me put forward a contrary opinion...

I fully agree that WAM should never involve people who are going through the motions, or don't want to do it. Having said that, the best WAM films have involved people acting out the part of the shocked/appalled "victim" - i.e. pretending NOT to want it. Similarly, a post yesterday (I think from DD) said that the best WAM involved "posh totty" on a "the higher they are, the harder they'll fall" basis - a post I fully agree with.

Essentially, although they are pretending, the best WAM films feature non-consenting characters (such as the presenter in the final scene of sticky buns, or most of Sammy-Jane's victims in her other Splosh films) getting messed up. In our own fantasy leagues and stories, much of the fun comes from taking a snooty posh bird and bringing her down a peg or two. Surely this is degrading to the characters - fictional though they may be.

Remember, I am playing devil's advocate here (for the sake of debate). How can we say that WAM is not degrading, if we agree that the best WAM involves "non compliant" characters? The models may be pretending to not enjoy it, but the fact that they are pretending (or even need to pretend) to not want it suggests that degradation is a core element of WAM - otherwise Splosh and other WAM producers would not include these facets in their film-making.

Is WAM degrading to the women who participate? Not if they are consenting adults who enjoy it. Is WAM degrading to women as a whole? If degradation is a core element, I would suggest it may be.

What does everyone else think?

I would reiterate (before I get flamed!) that this is purely an intellectual exercise and not necessarily my own opinion. Either way, WAM (and this forum in particular) is an example of freedom of expression, and whilst we may not agree with what everyone expresses on this forum, we should defend people's right to express it. That is what a forum like this is for. So be gentle with me!

You may begin!

King Arthur

Right! *rubs hand together*

I agree with that in a sense KingArthur. Although I wouldn't call it degradation, rather playful humiliation. Depending on how extreme it is of course....

But yes if a girl is pretending to hate it there is an element of fantasised degradation/humiliation... i dont know, i think playful humiliation is a good way to put it. It was Clare Rose who mentioned the snobby spoilt rich girl getting her come-uppance.

So yeah, i think there is a sort of "sub genre" amongst the scene which deals solely in the humilation of a girl.


As long as the girl agrees to do it, that's cool. A lot of women (more than I thought) are into being humiliated. I know I'm up for it from time to time, especially as an aficionado of being taken over my fella's knee and spanked!

It's cathartic. There's also the women who prefer to act like they don't want it because then they can stay *innocent* .... like the girls who fantasise about being kidnapped and "played with"

it means it's taken out of their hands.... and they can enjoy it inside without feeling "impure" for doing it themselves


i THINK that makes sense!

dd x x x

Well, of course the concept is degrading. The joke is bringing people down a peg or two but the reality is not.

It's like arguing whether a James Bond film involves violence and therefore horrible for the participants. No, it isn't horrible or violent in reality but the it needs the pretence that it is to work. However if the result is too realistic (as in more graphically violent films) then it stops being entertaining and starts becoming more unpleasant for the viewer, even though deep down we know they are still acting.

So sploshing is designed to look degrading without actually being so, and if the participants looked like they were REALLY hating it (rather than the over-the-top expressions we use), it wouldn't work (well, not for me).

Phew! That's the end of me trying to be clever!

Hayley (back to being a dumb blonde again)

Hayley, DD et al

You are both absolutely right insofar as WAM in general - and Splosh in particular - pursues the OTT, tongue in cheek aspect to humiliation/degradation (call it what you like), and does not appear threatening or abusive to the models involved.

However (and here is the nub of my argument), how appealing or sexy would a sketch be if the "victim" appeared eager to be pied/gunged? I bet most people enjoy the (albeit mock) looks of abject shock and horror (e.g. Louise from Pretty Clumsy Woman when SJ is the waitress) far more than the "go on, pie me" type from some US sources.

Hayley - I appreciate your point of view about James Bond films, but whilst they do not encourage violence, I am sure you agree that - at some level - they glorify it. James Bond blows up a helecopter and it is shown to be cool, therefore the viewer is left with the impression that blowing stuff up is cool. Most people realise that it is make-believe, but does it glorify violence - however "comic"? Absolutely.

Equally, despite the fact that we all know that Lousie enjoyed SJ pouring food all over her, the fact that she pretends to be horrified appeals to the viewer because it suggests - however comically - that she is being humiliated/degraded. Of course, everyone watching knows that SJ is not humiliating her in reality, but the underlying attraction of it is that Louise appears to be being humiliated, just as people who watch James Bond know that the helecopter was a 3ft model blown up by a special effects guy but are attracted to the fact that it looks cool.

(NB - Before I get flamed by James Bond fans, I know there are a million other reasons why James Bond is cool, I am merely addressing the point about violence that Hayley made earlier!).

If anyone can convince me otherwise, I am eager to hear.

I am not suggesting it is wrong to degrade women...men are degraded all the time. I am simply offering up for debate a counter point of view. If we can't question ourselves, who can we question? Isn't that what a free society is all about?

King Arthur

One way of expressing Wam is to call it -- 'Comical abuse'

As long as Wam is used to amuse people, and if the 'abused' person is willing to participate, then there can be no reason to believe that Wam is degrading.

Comic Abuse

Now that would be a charity night I'd be only to happy to participate in!

Hayley

Sorry, Glynnnn1, I can't agree. Surely if you are depicting something, however comically or tongue in cheek, it is entertainment because of what it depicts.

An extreme examples is those two nutters in France who went on a killing rampage after seeing Natural Born Killers a few years back. Of course, they were nutters and couldn't distinguish between reality and fantasy, but that's not the point. They were impressed to go on a loony rampage because of a film which seemed to glorify killing, and - in their sick twisted minds - they were taken up by the glorification.

The question was: is WAM degrading? My argument is, since it depicts people as unwilling victims - even if we all know it is make believe and tongue in cheek - then the fact that we are entertained by a character being unwillingly humiliated demonstrates that it is degrading.

Again, I don't think there is anything wrong with it. I believe that this is on a par with playing doctors and nurses, secretaries and deputy prime ministers etc. It is a fun role play where (as long as everyone is consenting) nobody gets hurt.

I'm just questioning how we can say that it is not degrading, when it seems to me that it is. If it was a female gunging a seemingly unwilling man, I bet people would think it degrading to men.

Thoughts?

Baroness Hayley...where do I get my sponsor form from?

Keep the debate going!
King Arthur

My answer is this : It can be degrading. but degradation is a strong word.

yes it is still degrading even when it's pretend. But there is nothing wrong with it is what I say because it is playing to a particular fantasy

Your points are all very valid regarding films and such. There are guys out there who just want a woman to degrade them, command them to fill their boxers with beans and such. There are girls who like it too.

So the question was "Is WAM degrading?"

I say "Sometimes it is, sometimes it isn't. But there's nothing wrong with it in the right situation under the right conditions"

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I must admit I do like the thought of being well and truly wammed, I also sometimes think about wamming somebody else while having a session, there has too be some special in it ( I was going to say electric, this would only give gungeslut time to break out the bag of tricks!!)

When wamming with somebody else I always try not to get excited, sometimes you can't help it, most of the time ok though.

If wamming is degrading I love it, bring it on you wuss, more gunge!!!!!

Andy

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Glad to see so many responses to my post, already!
I once asked Rob Blaine (RIP) how he'd respond to people who'd say he's degrading women. He said that what he was doing wasn't as bad as some other things that are out there. And he was right.
A sleezeball film producer filmed a hardcore video showing a woman being totally degraded by a man. He breaks into her house, rapes her, then kills her. That is far worse than what we're into, isn't it?
Yes, WAM can be said to be a little bit degrading, but it's fairly innocent compaired to other sexual practices. And I'm absolutely confodent that it can be just as fun to the ladies being WAMed as it is to those of us who enjoy it.