Off-topic -- universal health care

[MrB]

Queue jumping was perhaps the wrong term, I didn't mean it as a bad thing as it doesn't delay the treatment of people on the NHS. I just couldn't think of a good term for it.

[BillShipton]

I have no quarrels with the NHS, but I take to task anyone who says private health insurance and treatment is "queue jumping".

I was wrong to generalise implying all private health care is queue jumping. Of course there are cases when it isn't - including my Dad (a lifelong lefty) who chose to go private for one operation for precisely the same reasons as Simon. Although I too am self employed, I have chosen to wait for the NHS because I felt uncomfortable with the idea of going private, but I appreciate not everyone can do this.

[muckypup]

Don't get me started, I have a bee in my bonnet on this one.....

Fantastic post, said everything I think much more eloquently!

[Pacman]

Having been raised here, I do struggle to get my head around the concept of being a commodity rather than a public service. I can't imagine being in a situation where you have to decide between your health and subjecting your family to a lifetime of debt.

A couple of years ago I was in Prague with my girlfriend (now fiance ) when she suffered a sudden acute bout of appendicitis (not that we knew that at the time, just that she was in crippling pain). After managing to phone for an ambulance and explain the problem (not the easiest thing in the world when you don't speak the language), when it arrived we were asked if we wanted to pay the 2000Kc (about £70) ambulance fee in cash or with a card, as the payment was expected upfront. It really does boggle the mind, because I have no idea what would have happened if we didn't have the money, since without prompt surgery it could have proved fatal.

Luckily all the other medical costs were covered under E111/EHIC, but it really did open my eyes and make me really grateful for the NHS, where anyone in need of immediate lifesaving treatment can get it free, no questions asked. We have to remember we're talking about human lives here, how can that be made into a tradeable commodity with a price tag?

[sweetnpied]

Ohhhh my! I never thought I'd get this much of a response on such an off-topic as this one!

I'll try some of the questions or issues directed at us Yanks.

At least one of you has said something to the effect that a lot of unnecessary procedures are performed here in the States because doctors are trying to drive up their bills to insurance companies. While that is true in far too many cases, I'm pretty sure the statistically greater cause of all the unnecessary testing is a result of our highly litigious society. A doctor is so afraid he or she will be sued for malpractice if something goes wrong and a particular test was available but not performed, a doctor orders every conceivable test under the sun. Too many damn people in this country going to too many damn lawyers suing doctors, nurses, hospitals, etc., the moment anything doesn't go perfectly right... or even when it does go as well as it can, but they're not 100% perfectly healed. Or even worse, patients making up or exaggerating their pain in the hopes of a major payday. And juries are on the average so sympathetic to the patients over the doctors and nurses and hospitals, a lot of times they find for the patient and give out judgments in their favor.

As to what Americans want with health care, I really don't think anybody really knows. I heard on the radio today that before the bill was passed 60% were against it. Now that the bill is passed, it's 50-50%. A very popular saying in the States is, "nothing succeeds like success." And that seems to be true with the health care legislation. But another problem is polling is sooooo unreliable. You don't know what to believe. And, of course, the media pundits put their own spin on everything because telling the truth is not always their #1 priority. Their #1 priority, however, is ALWAYS getting the ratings. So many times the more controversial the story is, regardless of the truth, the greater the risk someone will tell the controversial story over the true one.

And I totally agree with the poster who mentioned how divided our country is right now. It is a very unhealthy situation. We are so big a country and so split down the middle that it's hard to get a consensus on anything. Not a particularly good situation for a democracy to be in.

But I love hearing the stories from all of you who live through national health care on a daily basis. You wouldn't believe how much the conservative right is CONSTANTLY battering Americans with stories about how terrible your health care system is. I don't know who to believe in the media, so I thought I'd find out from the people themselves who are living it.

Michael Moore did a movie a couple of years back called, "Sicko," where he praised the nationalized health systems of the UK, Canada, France, etc., and murdered how badly we treat people in our country. And boy is HE ever the face on the dartboard being used by conservatives for throwing darts. CONSTANTLY being villified. I actually find his movies very amusing ("Roger and Me" where he takes on the Amercian auto industry, and "Bowling for Columbine" where he takes on Americans' fascination with guns, etc.) I'm not saying I believe everything HE says either, but I do find it funny how he is such an irritant to the conservative right.

[Lizzie_Claymore]

On your latter point, you may be interested to read this article.

Often, web-based articles are largely opinion but this one has the greatest number of references and links I think I've ever seen! The amount of work expended gathering all these is truly mind-boggling!

[Goodwrench]

sweetnpied wrote "But I love hearing the stories from all of you who live through national health care on a daily basis. You wouldn't believe how much the conservative right is CONSTANTLY battering Americans with stories about how terrible your health care system is. I don't know who to believe in the media, so I thought I'd find out from the people themselves who are living it."

BINGO! This is the biggest problem. You have no idea who to beleive, because the media is run by the people with the money. So you never get the true story, you get what someone wants you to hear.

Overhauling the system is SO IMPORTANT! I work in healthcare. I have seen the INCREDIBLE ABUSE of the "free system" for those who can not pay. People without insurance show up in the emergency room becuase they know they can not be turned away, even if it is for COMPLETELY MINOR issues that could easily be treated in a doctor's office. Fist off, this clogs the system, and wait times are insane! This creates a dangerous situation also for someone who really needs the emergency care! Imagine you are having a heart attack, and need help NOW, but the doctor is busy assessing a 22 year old with no medical history who is in the ER becuase they have had vomiting and diareah for the past 4 hours. Then there's the cost! Do you have any idea how much an ER visit is compared to a doctor's office visit? A LOT! And how does the hospital recoup the money it loses from parties that can not pay? They jack up the prices on rooms and tests and charge the poeple who DO have insurance. That is why those per capita healthcare costs are SO MUCH HIGHER in America. People with insurance have their premiums skyrocket almost every year. People have been getting pay raises of 3%, but their check doesn't change, becuase their insurance premium went up 30%. The costs are so out of control.

And God forbid someone is in between jobs and is involved in an accident, or falls ill and needs treatment. The hospitals will take your savings, your house, ruin your life, they do not care. The only people that are currently benefitting form the current system are the CEO's of the major insurance companies, and the people who have absolutely nothing, and have nothing that can be taken from them.

And those are my 2 cents

[SimonW]

This has brought up a great exchange of views!

MrB and Bill - I wasn't getting at you about "queue-jumping", more of a general observation...there are a lot of people who just think anything private must be totally evil and only for the fat-cats! (I'm sure,too, that Bill will agree with me on the joys of being self-employed, but that's another issue!)

There are fors-and-againsts.....I can be VERY right-wing at times, but I still think that some services are too vital to the country's prosperity and security to be just glibly privatised for political purposes and totally handed to the capitalists to run them purely for profit. It's arguable that our then government made a mess of privatising things like the utilities and transport for example.

Sweetnpied - Interesting that the US conservatives put out such a bad opinion of our NHS. That is totally wrong.

As regards the private side of UK healthcare, I have read that a lot of the abuses of a few years ago, where consultants and hospitals ripped-off the insurance companies with excess charges, like £10 for a sticky-plaster , have been stopped. The insurance companies look much more strictly at these changes, and where people are paying out of their own money, the hospitals seem willing to arrange fair and competitive capped charges for non-urgent procedures.

But, having said that, I have also read (though not recently) of some peoples' concerns that private hospitals may not always have the 24-hour cover of a variety of consultants, if a problem comes up, which a big NHS hospital would have.

[shredder]

A Canadian perspective:
I am quite content with our public health system. It varies a little from province to province exactly if and what a person/family pays in premiums and taxes. If I was low income, I could get it for free. However, being average to above-average (but severely wishing I was a fat cat) I pay about $100 / month for the two of us. Being self-employed, I pay this directly, rather than in the more common bundle of employee benefits. I can make a free appointment with my family doctor for exactly when I want in 1-2 weeks in advance, get squeezed in when she wants 2-3 days in advance or sit and wait at an associated clinic for typically less than an hour during daylight hours. I pay the drug costs out of pocket being self employed, since the drug insurance plan is far more than my low needs. However, if I pay more than about $200/mo, anything above is covered for free by the public system on an annual basis.
There are no annual or lifetime maximums and it is a cradle to grave system. An ambulance ride would cost me less than $100, but after that, everything at a hospital emergency or long-term is free. I would personally avoid emergency room visits I did not need, because as a low priority injury I would sit for several hours. (Also, they are full of sick people with communicable diseases that I do not want) If I had an unavoidable need for emergency, I would have something sufficient to need urgent care and would receive service inside of 10 minutes. I totally agree with prioritization of care in emergency. I would hope that the guy with the heart attack trumped my broken leg (but that the doctor did not actually drop my leg while leaving!) Dental and glasses are excluded (except for the poor) but the rates are not bad on an annual basis.

Complex procedures for non-life threatening procedures do indeed have a wait list. Hips might be a year for example. But if you had a heart attack, you are on the table as fast as they can get you there.

I can go to whatever hospital or clinic I want, but I took a bit of time to find a family doctor that was still accepting patients into their routine practice that suited the style that we wanted. Some people I know never bother to find a preferred family doctor, but I like a continuity of care and prefer to know people who grope me!

There are options for the people richer than me to get private service in a complex way with a mixture of going out of province or county or having a specific list of procedures on their own pocket. If I was out of work and needed a procedure to get back to generating income, I would have to make a business case for the procedure and take that route if necessary by increasing time to pay my mortgage or something.

Of course, more money into the system would result in better service, but most people do not want to pay more taxes, so its probably as good as it is going to get. I have friends working in the health care industry at all levels and many who are users of the system for assorted long-term and critical conditions, As with any group of people, most people try their best and some fight/use the system. If anything, I think too many consumers of medical care do abuse the system though and seek/expect a higher quality of care than their condition warrants. If I was critically ill and could have a $1million procedure to extend my (long) life by a month, I hope I would have enough guts to say 'no thanks' (based on the premise that my overall pain would not be higher, cuz I am a wuss)

I simply do not 'get' what the US Conservatives are afraid of.

[muckypup]

Ohhhh my! I never thought I'd get this much of a response on such an off-topic as this one!
I don't know who to believe in the media,

Not Fox news

[Candy Custard]

Interesting thread.

I agree with Mike and Bill, very much so...

Sweetnpied it is indeed nonsense being spouted about our system. It is excellent, yes it has it's faults with waste and I also agree mental health provision isn't so great but no way would I want any other system. The NHS has been there for me and my daughter in times of urgent need and also not so urgent, and I personally have never had anything but what I see as pretty excellent and efficient service. I certainly don't mind what I pay in contributions (I would even happily pay more, it's frankly a bargain, but shhh don't tell them that)

xxx

[Candy Custard]

Don't get me started, I have a bee in my bonnet on this one.....

Fantastic post, said everything I think much more eloquently!

another thumbs up from me!

[Miss T]

Not Fox news

NEVER FOX NEWS! Quite how the highly sensible and fair idea of "health care as the right of every citizen" gets to be so contentious is beyond us... sure there will be teething problems but nothing is perfect.... its going to take longer to get right with all the opposition thats being whipped up.

As for over here... yes we complain about it, yes we moan and to be honest everyone has told it as it is... the system is not perfect, it is underfunded but we would not be without it. If someone is ill all we have to worry about is their recovery and NOT how am I going to afford this..

Bill summed it up very well

The problem is that any health service is extremely expensive to run because equipment needed to keep it at the forefront costs more and more. Your population needs to be prepared to expect this and support it - some more right-wing people might see it as a money pit, especially as it is helping the poorer in society more than the well-off. Personally I think this is exactly what we should be doing. .........

When the NHS was introduced in the UK it was opposed by doctors, conservatives and many more. Now it is accepted as a good idea (albeit not perfect). Once your country gets used to paying their insurance contributions in the same way they pay taxes they should feel that they have done a good thing. Of course, you will always have a few who object to paying to help poorer people, immigrants etc but in a fair society, we should be prepared to do exactly that.

As for why so many replies... well because the National Health System altho much maligned is also much appreciated over here because we nearly all know someone it has helped/saved etc

[Boomer]

For those of us in the states, man is this the hot topic right now. Our Congress just approved it and Obama's signing it. The critics keep saying that in countries which have nat'l health care you have to be put on a long waiting list to get even life-saving operations. Then you see Michael Moore's movie, "Sicko," and he claims socialized medicine countries have no problem getting the best health care, medical tests, etc. I'm just wondering, how do those of you who live in England, Canada, etc., really feel about your country's health care system?

This has certainly been an interesting thread to read. I appreciate all the thoughtful responses posted here. It's very enlightening to get opinions about the NHS from those who have direct experience with it. I also agree with sweetnpied that the health care debate has divided our country like no other social issue since the 1960s.

All that being said, I'd like to point out that the bill that President Obama signed into law is in no way, shape or form socialized medicine. In fact, Congress never even seriously considered any form of a system that could honestly be called socialized medicine. The more liberal Democrats did propose a single payer system, which is basically Medicare for everybody. It would be a government sponsored insurance program that covered everyone. It wasn't supported by the President and didn't have enough political support to be seriously considered by the leadership in Congress.

The best analogy we have in the States for actual socialized medicine is the VA system. Veterans Administration hospitals provide care for military or retired military personnel. They are government owned, and the people that work there are either Federal employees or they are independent contractors employed by the Federal Government. That is the closest thing we have to the NHS.

The bill that was passed by Congress keeps intact all the for-profit insurance companies, health care providers and everything else we now have. Socialized medicine is a system where the government is actually in the health care business, and owns hospitals and clinics and employs medical personnel. We don't have that, the bill we passed isn't going to do that, and it was never even seriously considered doing that.

I don't want to turn an informative thread on health care into any kind of rant. We've got more than enough of that already. But I would point out that "socialized medicine" was used as a buzz word, first and foremost by Fox News, to play on people's fears. It's particularly effective on those that only get their "information" from Fox. There is no socialized medicine, or death panels, or proposals to come between you and your doctor in the bill passed by Congress. That simply is not the case, and it was never even proposed. Many of the "issues" that have people on the Right so upset, simply do not exist anywhere outside Fox News and the Right Wing Mediatainment industry.


Thanks

MB

[boxster]

Boomer did an excellent job of explaining the bill at large.

In fact, as we have now learned, the bill draws upon ideas proposed by the conservatives in the past 20 years. It is not single payer and medical professionals will still engaged in private practice.

And thanks to boomer for coining the phrase "mediatainment industry."